Curse

MMSDome · Sep 02, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I had and still have no clue what is going on because the only time I am in pvp is when me and guildies decide we will full around and make all wammo partie and that such. From my point A-Net is making an example out of the guilds that went against the rules and showing that they will take action if you dont follow A-Nets law. Its simple I guess they did something wrong and they are currently or did get what they deserved.

This really doesnt concern any of us accept A-Net and the guilds disqualified, it isnt our problem so I suggest we all keep it that way and dont worry about it and learn from the wrong doer's actions.

FibberMcgee · Sep 02, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

What a sorry spectacle. If those who cheated were so sure they knew asking teams to take a dive was perfectly alright then asking Anet for a ruling ahead of time would have been the thing to do. They knew in their hearts what Anet would have said but they figured they would get away with it so why ask. Screw those low ranking noobs why should they take points away from us.

Those of you who think Anet should write every possible way of cheating down in some kind of rule book to avoid loopholes are dead wrong. The more law the more loopholes. Sure in real life you need a lot of complex laws because you might end up in the slammer without knowing why. This a game for crying out loud. If anyone who cheated can honestly look someone in the face and say what we did was perfectly ok then your parents missed something in your upbringing. When you go to a school do they hand out a manual on all the things that are considered cheating? Do a google on ethics, you might learn something.

Vanquisher · Sep 02, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanta

I don't know why you are so persistent on defending yourselfs for these actions you deny. We had people in your vent when it happened with people from girl in the channel, I didn't know guilds like to be in the same channel in matches, sorry. Not to mention we know people from your guild were jumping in and out of ours too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skull

I was in slot #1 for QQ vs girl, there was no vent countdown going on. But cow did ask us to resign.

This post can be located on TGH, here.

Quote:

This doesn't even include the [love] resign outs where they did it at least 3 times, which we have in screenshots and words them saying that "of course we are going to resign out to them cuz we are in their alliance."

Twice. We played them 3 times, once they played the match and we won in 6 minutes. The other two times they resigned out. We didn't ask them to, they just did it. I think the only top Guild they didn't resign out to was you guys, heh. If you have those screenshots, why don't you report Love instead of us?

Quote:

It seems to me qq thinks this is "fish singling us out." I've gotten random messages from people i don't even know after the situation saying they backed us up too and sent in any info they attained.

I wonder why we think this. Perhaps it's the fact that your status had someone's email in asking for everyone to send screenshots of people resigning to us in it. Or that your members went in #gwp straight after Te resigned out to us when they had all-but won the match and started a massive topic about it. Honestly, under the circumstances, I'd back you up too if I weren't in the Guild and knew what happened, but after I've informed people of the messages that took place between myself and Mike Gills, and it's been made clear that the "evidence" that was sent about resigns was not the reason we are having our cape trims removed, I would have thought that would be enough. Instead you seem intent on trying to make other people believe the reasons you believed yourself.

Quote:

And on a personal note, i can't believe anything you say as you say my guildies who were in your guild that time HELPING qq get hundred's of rating were lying when you guys were talking behind our backs. You just seem like a pathological liar to me. It seems to me you are trying to keep everyone happy by lying but it just comes around full circle when you get caught. I really don't know how to trust you vanq, im sorry.

Famous and Custo guested for you, and were actually wanting to join you because we didn't feel we'd be competitive to get you high, too. Don't try and say this is only a one-way thing. We asked a couple of people to guest because we only have 6 people in our core for the duration of the fun season, since which we have increased it. We needed to get guests, and it just so happened that you guys wanted to guest. As for the talking behind your backs thing, that was stuff taken completely out of context and random mentionings were added to it to make it seem more dramatic. I haven't lied about a thing here, for the record.

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And on smurf notes, yes we did switch over to purp when we were tipped off you guys were going to go in on girl to tank us. But that's a worthless statement as it's speculation on us and you guys, for each guild saying that eachother was going in with intent to tank. Maybe we both just felt eachother were going to do that.

No, not on girl. After you guys beat Te, we played unrateds with them 4 times. Norad and Smgzor were both guesting for these games, as was Duck on Flag Runner. Had we actually had a Runner with a degree of experience, we probably would've played rated on our main. We had never collectively played on girl, and it was clear we were playing on our main at the time. You guys switched onto purp to avoid getting hit with a 30 point rating swing if we happened to win the match, which never happened.

Quote:

I am against smurfs personal, but yes i did play 2 matches with purp, which we both lost anyways. A few others and I in the guild want to get rid of purp all together. At least we didn't have an outlet to 2 different smurf/pug guilds at our disposal which were also floating around top20 trying to get top16 for silver capes to sell the guild.

I think only 2 of us ever played on Love, and those were Famous and Tom. The time they did play, they tanked you guys, which sucks because every other top team they played they resigned out to, I think - not completely sure. That however, is Akari's Guild, not ours. As for girl, it was a complete gwp pug, and we only used it once, and happened to tank RenO when playing on it.

A note we can both agree on though is that these rules do need to be clarified. They were bent by some guilds and anet finally took action. People complain about it being sudden, but it's better late then never. People were complaining so much about nothing being done in the past, now the guilds who got caught are complaining action was finally taken. They punishment isn't even severe, but can be set as an example of what can happen to come now. Hopefully this will be an extension in the future to prevent and stop these actions from happening.

Quote:

If truly action was took only on the BR match, then yes, I don't agree with that, but there IS evidence of much more than that and that's why I don't agree with your statements.

Not on our part, according to Mike. Considering he went through all the evidence, I'd say his decision on that's pretty much the clear one. What you guys think (rightly so, in my opinion - I'd think it too if I didn't know better) is reasonable. But like I said, I've just tried to correct myths about this, and let people know the true reasons behind the disqualification.

romO · Sep 02, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanta

If truly action was took only on the BR match, then yes, I don't agree with that, but there IS evidence of much more than that and that's why I don't agree with your statements.

There is not evidence of anything other than asking BR to resign out. Asking. It never even happened. QQ did not manipulate the ladder in the least in that situation. We have been over this with Mike Gills for days, Animal, and I am telling you genuinely that there is no evidence of any actual ladder manipulation. QQ got capes taken away for "intent" to manipulate the ladder, which means that we wish we could have had free rating, rather than actually doing anything. I am a reasonable person, and had QQ actually done the least to change ladder rating, I would admit to it.

If you want to call out all top guilds on smurfs, then so be it, I would be glad to confess as long as the other top guilds did as well. Smurfing is a shame as is nothing but destructive to the community. However, it seems that if Anet will do nothing about it, a guild is better off winning with a smurf than losing to one. It is not an ideal situation, but every top guild seems to find itself giving in. That is another kind of ladder manipulation which should remain exempt from this conversation. If smurfing is discussed, then most every top guild would have their prizes taken away. Would I be okay with it? YES! I would be incredibly glad that they were making an attempt to put an end to it once and for all.

However, as it stands, the precedent that they are setting that says that a guild can be punished for ladder manipulation when they have not actually affected the ladder ratings or rankings at all seems ridiculous. Removing the prizes of several guilds seems just, but certainly not for the reason that they are doing it.

eternal pho · Sep 03, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

The way this game is played, and the way some players act while playing, I am not surprised by what has happened, but given if the the guild who broke the rules is a favorate of Anets, like the korean guilds, then no punishment will be issued (Slap on the wrist, shame on you). But if the guild that broke the rules (Any Other) is not favored by Anet, then they are thrown to the wolves, and are considered guilty as charged.

How are the Korean guilds favored by Anet? May you show some proof?

Chris Blackstar · Sep 03, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by eternal pho

How are the Korean guilds favored by Anet? May you show some proof?

It's called bait and catch, if untrue which is most likely, it should be ignored. The statement that is, but if Anet acts upon responding to the statement in defensive arguement, then it can be considered that some if not all of the precieved statement is true. In other words don't add fuel to the fire.

Gaile Grey responded to my statement with an attack and complete denial of what I stated. To me that is a conformation to the statement. Guilty parties sometimes can't stop themselves from wanting to tell the truth about a secret, so instead of just coming out with it, they will tend to attack a person who makes a possible suggestion of that secret.

I will make a suggestion, an being just my opinion and not nessassary the truth, that if a top ranking korean guild did the same minipulation as say an american guild, that they may not be punished the same way, but only get a warning, as the american guild will recieve the worst punishment. the parent company in located in korea, for Anet, and people tend to take care of their own.

Just my opinion, could be totally wrong, maybe, then again maybe not.

Feminist Terrorist · Sep 03, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

In principle, I agree with you, Gaile.

However, I long ago learned that "principle" must be reconsidered when confronted by humans.

Yes, you *do* need to spell out *exactly* what contitiutes a violation, in clear and uncertain terms. Otherwise, your current "rule" leaves ANet open to accusations (however unfounded) of inconsistency and bias (as we see in this thread).

Sometimes, you write the rules to protect yourself.

Good post. QFT

overclocked · Sep 03, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I don't like how Gail is so good at avoiding the question, of why was action taken aginst these guilds, and not aginst war machine.

I would aslo like to know, why nothing has been done to war machine yet.

It was common knowledge that these guilds did what they did, asking for proof is so irrelevant. The Rules were unclear and too vague.

Even if u didn't know, I am telling you now, go check your logs the war machine smurf camped below 100 all ladder season, quiting and resiging to avoid making observer mode and revealing thier build.

You already have the Proof, and you have to investigate, NOT ME! Don't tell me to do a full season of scouting and snooping for free when It your responsibility to do the job in the first place. If you want to hire me to look for abuse, then and only then will I do that job for you, because it is your job to police this ladder not ours.

If you will not penalize War Machine then leave these guilds alone and make a retraction.

When dealing with ladder rules you need a mantra of consistancy and fairness, as of this time u have neither.

Fanta · Sep 03, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

There is not evidence of anything other than asking BR to resign out. Asking. It never even happened. QQ did not manipulate the ladder in the least in that situation. We have been over this with Mike Gills for days, Animal, and I am telling you genuinely that there is no evidence of any actual ladder manipulation. QQ got capes taken away for "intent" to manipulate the ladder, which means that we wish we could have had free rating, rather than actually doing anything. I am a reasonable person, and had QQ actually done the least to change ladder rating, I would admit to it.

If you want to call out all top guilds on smurfs, then so be it, I would be glad to confess as long as the other top guilds did as well. Smurfing is a shame as is nothing but destructive to the community. However, it seems that if Anet will do nothing about it, a guild is better off winning with a smurf than losing to one. It is not an ideal situation, but every top guild seems to find itself giving in. That is another kind of ladder manipulation which should remain exempt from this conversation. If smurfing is discussed, then most every top guild would have their prizes taken away. Would I be okay with it? YES! I would be incredibly glad that they were making an attempt to put an end to it once and for all.

However, as it stands, the precedent that they are setting that says that a guild can be punished for ladder manipulation when they have not actually affected the ladder ratings or rankings at all seems ridiculous. Removing the prizes of several guilds seems just, but certainly not for the reason that they are doing it.

I appreciate your post, woulda been much easier if vanq had went the route you did rather than dissect my posts and add his 2 cents for everything I say. I also agree with everything you said in the second paragraph.

I'm sure then you could understand where we were coming from, when everything just seemed so suspicious as if all linked together. Especially when some people "told" us (possibly lied to us then) that some of that stuff was going down. You here 2 sides and you don't know who to believe, that's how it was in my position at least.

btw, i still <3 you guys regardless on some of your feelings about fish :P

Boofhead · Sep 03, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

There is not evidence of anything other than asking BR to resign out. Asking. It never even happened. QQ did not manipulate the ladder in the least in that situation. We have been over this with Mike Gills for days, Animal, and I am telling you genuinely that there is no evidence of any actual ladder manipulation. QQ got capes taken away for "intent" to manipulate the ladder, which means that we wish we could have had free rating, rather than actually doing anything. I am a reasonable person, and had QQ actually done the least to change ladder rating, I would admit to it.

Soo.... because we didn't agree to resign, that makes it all okay?

Vital · Sep 03, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

QQ seems to be living up to there tag quite well.

If you break the rules then take the punishment and move on. Put an emphasis on not repeating history instead of trying to shift blame or making it personal.

It dosent matter what guild X did, it matters what your guild did. Grow a pair and take responsibility for your guild.

Demesis · Sep 03, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

QQ seems to be living up to there tag quite well.

If you break the rules then take the punishment and move on. Put an emphasis on not repeating history instead of trying to shift blame or making it personal.

It dosent matter what guild X did, it matters what your guild did. Grow a pair and take responsibility for your guild.

But the guild in effect hasn't done anything yet. They were disqualified for the intent of manipulating the ladder. It's like throwing a man in jail just because he said he wanted to kill you, but hasn't really done anything wrong yet.

Kinda reminds me of minority report, ya know...

Denny Pace · Sep 03, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

I will make a suggestion, an being just my opinion and not nessassary the truth, that if a top ranking korean guild did the same minipulation as say an american guild, that they may not be punished the same way, but only get a warning, as the american guild will recieve the worst punishment. the parent company in located in korea, for Anet, and people tend to take care of their own.

Just my opinion, could be totally wrong, maybe, then again maybe not.

Are you serious? You actually believe that Anet would engage in active RACISM over a game rules violation? You have GOT to be KIDDING. I find it difficult to believe that there are people like you in the game.

This thread is ridiculous. We pay for a license to play this game according to Anet's rules. Nobody can play without accepting them. Anet received a variety of 'proofs' related to possible ladder manipulation. They, as is their right, decided that a punishment was warranted, and they meted it out. BFD.

Nobody got banned. Nobody lost a loved one. The guilds will be back and beating people left and right again. Smurf guilds will not go away; they're a part of the game. Some guilds will continue to ask for resignations. Some guilds will accept. Some guilds will offer resignations. I can't personally understand why any of those three things would occur in a competitive game like GW (I have won too many games even with a major morale deficit to give up), but they do, and we all have to deal with 'em. If they cross the line to ladder abuse, there should be consequences.

As for people calling for Anet to specifically list what constitutes ladder abuse, if I were them, I'd say fuggetaboutit. If you play the game competitively, you aren't engaging in ladder abuse. Seems like a pretty easy 'rule' to follow. Frankly, none of the punished guilds needed to do a damn thing other than play their normal high level of game in order to achieve success and gold/silver trim. None of them needed to participate in 'ladder manipulation' at all.

Demesis · Sep 03, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

you do realize uttering death threats is illegal in most places? a criminal offense?

It all depends in the manner it was said. Perhaps the guild were being sarcastic in their guild chats about the ladder.

Guy1: "Wow, this ladder competition is tough"

Guy2: "We could win by telling the other guilds to quit, lol"

Guy1: "Lol! Good one!"

Guy2: "Lmao!"

Anet: OMFG a conspiracy to manipulate the ladder! *disqualify*

Well, it does sound ridiculous, but you get the idea... I could tell a friend "I will kill you" but it would hardly sound like a death threat to him.

Depends on the context

Vital · Sep 03, 2006, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim1

lol.
It's ludicrous either way.
Asking for a guild to start a match search at the same time for free points is ladder abuse. Asking some random opponent to quit being ladder abuse is just stupid. stupid stupid stupid.

If BR had quit...QQ would have, in all probability, solidified #1. Asking them to resign is blatent BS and Nub to the core.

QQ has more than enough talent and pugs to just win it all the right way. Why try to steal rating from other guilds?

It wasnt a random opponet either. It was a dangerous Ranger Spike on its home map (ranked much lower), and in the last hours of a ladder with 3 teams single digits away from #1.

weez · Sep 03, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Hey

I have read the whole post, because it is so interesting and it pretty much could effect our guild too. I just would like to ask for clarification on a simple question.

When is it allowed to resign at all?

It seems to me based on the discussion presented so far, that no matter in which circumstances you use resign you anyway manipulating the ladder.
- Someone asks you to resign: you manipulate the ladder.
- You ask someone to do the same: manipulating the ladder.
- Either party just resigns because they had err7 or they are nice guys and dont want to give -25 to some team due to smurfing (which is admittedly hard to prove): manipulating the ladder.

Or how would it happen? Anet says that if you had err7 you are allowed to resign and let the other win? Then some people would just start accidentally lagging out and we are in same position.

It seems to me that /resign is not allwed to use at all, cause in any circumstances it is ladder abuse? or am I wrong? why was then it developed then to the game. When can you use it?

I bet there are couple of answers to this question which might be all right. but dollars to donuts the answers will not be the same -> Which means it is not clear for anyone what can be or cant be done -> which means it requires clarification.

I am posting very rarely, but I feel I must say this here also because anet apparently watches people opinions (which is absolutely great!) even if they have their own agenda: I feel we are a honest guy, we never cheat! But in this case we cant be sure any more what counts as cheating and what doesnt.

I agree with those persons who requires clear rules and guidance on the allowed options. It is not because anyone wants to generate extra work to anet (of which they have aplenty I am sure), just because what is clear for some might not be clear for others and it doesn't mean those guys are cheaters.

I just want to say that rules are unclear and with all due respect to Gaile I do not agree with his position occupied that "rules are sort-of self-explanatory and should be clear for all persons with appropriate ethical sense".

I believe those generic statements about "sportsmanship" etc were fine so far. But now punishments has been issued to some, and it hasn't been issued to some other who did the same (and everyone - I mean everyone - knew about it). Generic rules are not satisfactory any more. I don't like either the excuse: "we haven't received any proof about any other games". Well, go and get one yourselves. Your game, control it.

Boofhead · Sep 03, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Easy, when the other team asks you to resign out so they can get skill pins, then it's ladder abuse.

Inde · Sep 03, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Unfortunately this thread has become a shouting match. While I hate to close a frontpage thread, I believe people have stated their minds. Stated why they believe it was ladder maniupulation or not. ArenaNet and Gaile Gray have given us thier answer and information and I believe there is nothing more forthcoming from the devs and the shouting match will continue. So it's time for this thread to close.